227 replies to this topic

[TheEpicPancake]

floridaskier, on 08 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Also noted in the Park Record article is that the whole place will be called "Park City Mountain Resort," with the Canyons base area called "Canyons at Park City." Presumably that means they'll paint all the lifts either white or orange (probably PCMR white), match trail signs, add directional signs all over, and make a joint trail map. That's a pretty big undertaking - wonder what of that will happen this summer. Since it looks like PCMR is really running the show here, does this mean that all the detachables at The Canyons will lose the "Express" title?

http://www.parkrecor...ng-pcmr-canyons

I've wondered this also. I also wouldn't be surprised if they created an all new logo and branding for the new combined resort. Which would then mean all new signage across both resorts. Definitely a major undertaking but I would imagine it would be an important one for them as it reflects the image of the "new resort". I would guess this is the end of the shortly lived orange theme at Canyons. Except for perhaps the orange bubble express.

[DonaldMReif]

TheEpicPancake, on 08 December 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Leave it up to James Niehues, he would create an amazing map that encompasses both resorts in a single view (minus perhaps the McConkey's area). Although I'm slightly concerned that Vail might go the route they took with Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge AND Northstar by commissioning a truly horrifying digitally created trail map. Seriously, does anyone think Breckenridge's map in particular looks good?

The Breckenridge map was adapted from a satellite photo. True, it would look nicer as a painting from Kevin Mastin or James Niehues, but I think that it would be very hard to fit everything in with a painted map based on the one used from 2002 to 2007 with the expansion onto Peak 6 (I wonder if the digital map that's been used since 2007 was chosen so that it would be easier to update the map when the Kensho SuperChair expansion was added last year).

[DonaldMReif]

TheEpicPancake, on 08 December 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

I've wondered this also. I also wouldn't be surprised if they created an all new logo and branding for the new combined resort. Which would then mean all new signage across both resorts. Definitely a major undertaking but I would imagine it would be an important one for them as it reflects the image of the "new resort". I would guess this is the end of the shortly lived orange theme at Canyons. Except for perhaps the orange bubble express.

Let's just hope that they don't take the bubbles off Orange Bubble.

[TheEpicPancake]

DonaldMReif, on 08 December 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

The Breckenridge map was adapted from a satellite photo. True, it would look nicer as a painting from Kevin Mastin or James Niehues, but I think that it would be very hard to fit everything in with a painted map based on the one used from 2002 to 2007 with the expansion onto Peak 6 (I wonder if the digital map that's been used since 2007 was chosen so that it would be easier to update the map when the Kensho SuperChair expansion was added last year).

Well yea, the one used up to 2007 was a much older map painted years previously. Niehues would've just painted an all new one with the new terrain added. Is it easier to update digital maps? Sure it is. But is it really worth it? I don't think so.

[floridaskier]

If they go digital, I hope it's like Vail's Vistamap and not the hideous Breck satellite photo. Vail did commission a new James Niehues map for The Canyons under their watch to correctly show the Iron Mountain area, and preserved the same types of trail and lift markings that The Canyons has used for its entire history, so there's hope. This is the highest-profile ski resort map in decades - hopefully James Niehues is up for it and Vail goes that way

Gut reaction is that they'll make the place look like PCMR does now, since it has a much better reputation and name, and suppress memories that The Canyons ever existed. I don't think there's much brand loyalty to The Canyons, and the way Vail has jumped all over PCMR (and spent the initial round of money at PCMR, not The Canyons) makes it look like they think so too.

PCMR on-mountain paint is generic and consistent throughout - plain black/galvanized towers and all-white terminals (they used to do black and red accents but gave up on that a while ago), with simple blue old wooden or new metal trail signs. The Canyons has a bunch of cream-colored towers, some green ones, some gray ones, orange and silver and black and green and gray terminals, metallic modern trail signs in the Orange Bubble area, Indian dreamcatcher-themed signs south of Tombstone, and generic Wolf Mountain looking signs on Super Condor. Since they'll have to redo a bunch of signs for the interconnect anyway, wonder if they'll replace them all in one go so it looks like one place instead of 4. While they're at it, maybe they'll continue the PCMR mining theme with run names over at The Canyons too - it makes it feel more authentic.

Leave Jupiter alone too! There are many other lifts that should get the HSQ treatment before that - I propose this order: Dreamcatcher > Dreamscape > Peak 5 (realignment too) > New transfer lifts between old Canyons base area and Iron Mountain/Tombstone/Red Pine > Pioneer > Thaynes > Town Lift

[TheEpicPancake]

floridaskier, on 08 December 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

If they go digital, I hope it's like Vail's Vistamap and not the hideous Breck satellite photo. Vail did commission a new James Niehues map for The Canyons under their watch to correctly show the Iron Mountain area, and preserved the same types of trail and lift markings that The Canyons has used for its entire history, so there's hope. This is the highest-profile ski resort map in decades - hopefully James Niehues is up for it and Vail goes that way

Gut reaction is that they'll make the place look like PCMR does now, since it has a much better reputation and name, and suppress memories that The Canyons ever existed. I don't think there's much brand loyalty to The Canyons, and the way Vail has jumped all over PCMR (and spent the initial round of money at PCMR, not The Canyons) makes it look like they think so too.

PCMR on-mountain paint is generic and consistent throughout - plain black/galvanized towers and all-white terminals (they used to do black and red accents but gave up on that a while ago), with simple blue old wooden or new metal trail signs. The Canyons has a bunch of cream-colored towers, some green ones, some gray ones, orange and silver and black and green and gray terminals, metallic modern trail signs in the Orange Bubble area, Indian dreamcatcher-themed signs south of Tombstone, and generic Wolf Mountain looking signs on Super Condor. Since they'll have to redo a bunch of signs for the interconnect anyway, wonder if they'll replace them all in one go so it looks like one place instead of 4. While they're at it, maybe they'll continue the PCMR mining theme with run names over at The Canyons too - it makes it feel more authentic.

Leave Jupiter alone too! There are many other lifts that should get the HSQ treatment before that - I propose this order: Dreamcatcher > Dreamscape > Peak 5 (realignment too) > New transfer lifts between old Canyons base area and Iron Mountain/Tombstone/Red Pine > Pioneer > Thaynes > Town Lift

Actually the new map for the Canyons was made in 2011 long before Vail took over. But I'm still holding out hope they don't go digital.

In terms of your proposed order of lift upgrades, I would consider moving Town lift farther up. With Deer Valley prepared to put in their Main Street gondola, Vail might want to stay competitive with them and have a signature lift connecting to Main Street as well. And if they do that, I'm curious what type of lift it might be? Another gondola perhaps?

I think replacing the triple with a gondola and extending it could be good. There could be an angle station at the current top terminal and then continue on and run parallel to Bonanza and end next to the current top terminal of Bonanza.

This post has been edited by TheEpicPancake: 08 December 2014 - 05:52 PM

[RibStaThiok]

Anyone of how well PCMR has taken care of their lifts over the years? That in large part will determine which lifts stay and which will go and which will be re-located and which will be sold/scrapped.

Which of the lifts on this page are no longer correct?

http://www.skilifts....ut-parkcity.htm

This post has been edited by RibStaThiok: 08 December 2014 - 06:37 PM

[jaytrem]

RibStaThiok, on 08 December 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Anyone of how well PCMR has taken care of their lifts over the years? That in large part will determine which lifts stay and which will go and which will be re-located and which will be sold/scrapped.

Which of the lifts on this page are no longer correct?

http://www.skilifts....ut-parkcity.htm

Three Kings was upgraded to a triple, and the new Crescent HSQ is missing. I think that might be it. Missed one, Ski team is gone.

This post has been edited by jaytrem: 08 December 2014 - 06:50 PM

[SkiDaBird]

I think King Con would be much more likely to reappear as the Dream HSQ than Motherlode HSQ because Motherlode is over 1000 feet longer and the terrain requires more towers, currently 24, ~15. I think Vail has the right idea though, focus on PCMR now, and catch Canyons up later. I'm wondering if there is a large base plan near Tombstone and that's why there hasn't been anything about either Peak 5 or Dreamscape/Dreamcatcher. Jupiter should be left alone but something needs to be done about Town. It isn't worth heading down there for lunch sometimes because there is such a long ride back. If they added an unload station when it got back to the Payday pod that would really help make that a better option IMHO.

[DonaldMReif]

Town as a two-stage high speed quad would be my preferred approach with a midstation to allow easy access to Payday's pod.

[DonaldMReif]

Yep. Getting some of the traffic away from Silverlode is important first.

[SkiDaBird]

DonaldMReif, on 08 December 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Town as a two-stage high speed quad would be my preferred approach with a midstation to allow easy access to Payday's pod.

That's too much investment for the benefit, which is why I proposed the midstation. The lift isn't really for skiing at all, just access to Park City. In that respect, it's great as it literally starts on a roof of a building on main street. It is just such a long ride back to the mountain that if you aren't just carrying your lunch in a backpack, like I usually do, it's just easier to grab something by Silverlode or at the base.

[Tin Woodsman]

floridaskier, on 08 December 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Leave Jupiter alone too! There are many other lifts that should get the HSQ treatment before that - I propose this order: Dreamcatcher > Dreamscape > Peak 5 (realignment too) > New transfer lifts between old Canyons base area and Iron Mountain/Tombstone/Red Pine > Pioneer > Thaynes > Town Lift

How would you propose to realign Peak 5?

SkiDaBird, on 08 December 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

I think King Con would be much more likely to reappear as the Dream HSQ than Motherlode HSQ because Motherlode is over 1000 feet longer and the terrain requires more towers, currently 24, ~15. I think Vail has the right idea though, focus on PCMR now, and catch Canyons up later. I'm wondering if there is a large base plan near Tombstone and that's why there hasn't been anything about either Peak 5 or Dreamscape/Dreamcatcher. Jupiter should be left alone but something needs to be done about Town. It isn't worth heading down there for lunch sometimes because there is such a long ride back. If they added an unload station when it got back to the Payday pod that would really help make that a better option IMHO.

That's my question re: possible day skier base area at Tombstone. Would make the most sense, and probably where Canyons base should have been located from the start. Suspect Dreamscape will need to be upgraded no matter what due to traffic coming from the interconnect on a pretty attractive piece of terrain.

SkiDaBird, on 08 December 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

That's too much investment for the benefit, which is why I proposed the midstation. The lift isn't really for skiing at all, just access to Park City. In that respect, it's great as it literally starts on a roof of a building on main street. It is just such a long ride back to the mountain that if you aren't just carrying your lunch in a backpack, like I usually do, it's just easier to grab something by Silverlode or at the base.

Better yet, install the gondi with mid-station where Town ends today, rip out Bonanza (no longer needed due to gondola mid-station) and move it where needed elsewhere (Dreamscape? New lift from Iron Mtn base to somewhere useful near Peak 5? On Pinecone Ridge from base of King-Con to interconnect gondi mid-station?)

[floridaskier]

Hard to tell from the map but Bonanza serves its own pod of terrain - they cut green and blue runs over there for 1997 and it's fairly high traffic with beginners doing laps. You couldn't really replace Pioneer and Bonanza with one lift either. Bonanza is fine as is - no reason to rip it out. PCMR really doesn't have any lift location issues - there aren't any that I would move now that Crescent is there and provides a way around Bonanza (you can get to Silverlode or King Con easily, or Pioneer in a pinch from the top of Crescent.)

My issue with Peak 5 is that there's hardly any terrain that goes back down to it. It's a short lift that doesn't really have its own pod, or any purpose except getting to Dreamscape, End it higher up the hill and start it lower down and further south, and there would at least be a few runs that go there. That entire area is wasted - the runs point back to Tombstone, and they're narrow and rocky and all face south with no snowmaking and a slow fixed quad to get to them.

Not that this would ever happen with current ownership, but it would be great to see a gondola replace Town Lift, angle station next to the old angle station, and ending at the Empire Lodge at DV. There's nothing in between, unlike DV's ambitious plans for another gondola somewhere else down to Main Street. Make it free like Telluride and check tickets at the angle station before skiers enter PCMR. It would be a great marketing tool for both, a goodwill generator with the city government, and they could save lots of money by splitting the cost since it will barely be ridden by anyone. Town Lift ends where it does now so people can download it coming down from the upper mountain. You can get from Town Lift to the bottom half of all the Payday runs taking the Drift cattrack.

Simplest way to use King Con is to do it this year - they would need a new haul rope anyway and they have 116 CTEC chairs to work with and maybe reusable towers too. Why else would they do this in the same year - The King Con replacement isn't as urgent as Motherlode, and otherwise they might have done Motherlode by itself

[DonaldMReif]

The issues that Vail Resorts should resolve within the next two or three years all have to do with the lift alignments on The Canyons section of the resort. I mean, the detachables on that side of the resort are good in their current alignments - Iron Mountain, Tombstone and Ninety-Nine 90. I'd agree that the fixed grips over there are the ones that need realignment or really need to be situated better, like Peak 5 and Day Break. Starting Peak 5 lower downhill from Ninety-Nine 90 would make it actually have a pod of terrain.

[Backbowlsbilly]

PCMR is much more crowded than Canyons so Vail is right to replace PCMR lifts firsts, as was said earlier. Canyons will be able to handle the crowds just fine with the exception of Tombstone although it is a six pack, Iron Mountain is never crowded and can handle much more crowds and although Dreamcatcher and Dreamscape may be slow, they are never crowded either. New Raptor won't happen either, although the tow is a pain Orange Bubble is never crowded and was built to be able to handle those crowds, I would guess that the bubbles won't come off either. Vail will replace Dreamscape in the future because of its access to Cloud Dine but it isn't really urgent right now. Some other upgrades that I think could be in the works for Vail are lifts for the bowls at Keystone and something at Kirkwood but that's off topic, more importantly I think this shows that Vail's purchase of Park City really was what was best for the community as they are now proving that they can be greatly beneficial for the area's economy by pumping 50 million worth of investments the first year. I'm pretty sure Powdr wouldn't have done that. I personally love the trees off the Peak 5 lift and it could be better aligned but like Dreamcatcher and Dreamscape, it NEVER has crowds so its far back on the list for Vail.

This post has been edited by Backbowlsbilly: 09 December 2014 - 07:06 PM

[DonaldMReif]

The idea of a base at Tombstone still is appealing.

This post has been edited by DonaldMReif: 09 December 2014 - 07:28 PM

[Lift Dinosaur]

DonaldMReif, on 09 December 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

At the very least, a lift needs to be built because a lot of interconnect traffic will be using Tombstone to transit over to Red Pine Lodge.

Donald,
May I ask? Have you ever skied Canyons or Park City? Is all of your input from viewing Trail Maps on the internet?
Just asking.....
Dino

[SkiDaBird]

Lift Dinosaur, on 09 December 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

Donald,
May I ask? Have you ever skied Canyons or Park City? Is all of your input from viewing Trail Maps on the internet?
Just asking.....
Dino

Canyons especially doesn't ski like it looks. It's a weird mountain. PC is fairly straightforward though, although Bonanza and Pioneer's pods are bigger than they look on the map and Jupiter is way out in the middle of nowhere.

[DonaldMReif]

I guess I should stop reading maps. But even looking at the map, I can see that there's an awful amount of real estate that gets in the way of the skiing (with some Google Earth analysis). But off-topic, so let's get back on.

I wonder what EpicMix pins will have to be invented once the interconnect is completed. *GASP*