227 replies to this topic

[Tin Woodsman]

jaytrem, on 29 October 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I guess if Daybreak went to the top you would get a little more terrain. I don't think quality ski terrain was the objective over there though. as for the existing, it's typical intermediate terrain. When it first opened there was more skiing to be had, you could ski all the areas between trails. It wasn't steep but it was pretty nice. Now it's a big real estate developement with lift and few trails. As you can see in the map posted above by Peter that whole side of the resort is more real estate than ski area. At least it looks like Iron Mountain will remain "ski area"ish.

That plan, however flawed, was still WAY better than what exists today. Daybreak to the top of the ridge would have given you an extra 600 verts of genuinely interesting terrain while also facilitating access to the next draw to the south providing a 2200' vert run down to the base of Dreamcatcher. Upper Peak 5 would have been legit and facilitated better upper mtn flow. And don't discount those other two lifts - the one up to Fantasy Ridge and the one from the base of Iron to somewhere close to the base of Dreamscape/Daybreak. The former would have made some really interesting terrain more accessible AND would have provided another way back north past Tombstone w/o requiring a ride on that lift. The latter would have been a game changer for enabling better skier circulation on the south side of the resort, with single lift access from the base of Iron to Peak 5, Dreamscape and Daybreak. I am convinced that some incarnation of this latter lift will be critical for making Canyons attractive as a skiing destination for Vail. South half of the resort is WAY to inconvenient to get to/from now. Some sort of lift, starting either at Iron base or the top of the White Water run and ending at Peak 5 will be critical to move people back over to the other side, especially if/when combined with that Fantasy Ridge lift.

What could have been....

[DonaldMReif]

I am convinced that Dreamscape and Dreamcatcher should both be upgraded to high speed quads, but keep their alignments.

[Tin Woodsman]

DonaldMReif, on 29 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I am convinced that Dreamscape and Dreamcatcher should both be upgraded to high speed quads, but keep their alignments.

I don't disagree, but that's just a band-aid on a gaping wound. New lifts to better facilitate N-S and S-N transfer on the upper mountain are the much greater burning platform, especially in a world in which the interconnect with PCMR begins to take shape.

Ultimately, creation of a new base for day skiers at/near the bottom of Tombstone would be the best option, though even then you'll need new lifts to take the strain off Tombstone and enable quicker access to Dreamscape/PCMR.

[jaytrem]

For a semi easy fix I'd turn Timberline into a high speed 4 or 6 and extend it up to Red Pine. Allow for loading towards Iron at Tombstone mid-station and unloading at Tombstone coming back. Not convinced the Fantasy Ridge would do much, unless the cut some cat tracks for easy access back to Red Pine. Other wise you can get to all the same stuff from 9990. A longer Daybreak would indeed have been nice, but still not overly impressive. That backside draw looks like it drops into some serious flatness.

[CH3skier]

$50 million worth of improvements to interconnect the two resorts:

Announcing the Largest Resort Improvement Project in the History of American Skiing!

— Posted by Park City Mountain Resort on December 8, 2014


We knew when Vail Resorts took over operations of Canyons Resort in 2013 and acquired Park City this September that big things were in store for us – but how about unprecedented, history-making, blow-your-mind, 10-figure things??
Today, we are thrilled to share an ambitious plan linking two of North America’s greatest ski areas, Park City and Canyons – creating the largest resort in the United States with 7,300 acres of skiable terrain! But that’s not all: the plan includes more than $50 million(!) worth of resort improvements that include a new gondola, a new restaurant, new chairlifts and a range of other improvements that will transform the skiing and riding experience in Utah. And this isn’t a pie-in-the-sky 10-year plan. This is all stuff you will see on the mountain next season. Keep reading to learn the awesome details…

The Interconnect Gondola. An eight-passenger, high-speed gondola running from the base of Silverlode Lift at Park City to Canyons’ Flatiron Lift. When conditions allow, gondola passengers will be able to unload at the top of Pine Cone Ridge and ski or ride directly down to Park City’s Thaynes Canyon trail. This gondola connection will create the single largest ski resort in the United States.
Upgrades to Park City’s King Con and Motherlode Lifts. King Con will be upgraded from a 4-person to 6-person high-speed detachable chair, meaning increased lift capacity. Motherlode will switch from a fixed-grip triple to a 4-person high-speed detachable, similarly improving the number of guests it can carry.
New Snow Hut Restaurant and Summit House Restaurant Upgrades at Park City, Red Pine Lodge Expansion at Canyons. A completely new Snow Hut restaurant, replacing the current Snow Hut, next to the base of Park City’s Silverlode Lift and the Park City terminal for the Interconnect Gondola, will include 500 indoor seats and a top-of-the-line kitchen and culinary experience. Meanwhile, upgrades to Summit House will improve the flow of diners and increase seating. At Canyons, Red Pine Restaurant will be renovated to the tune of 250 more indoor seats.
Snowmaking and Other Improvements. The plan rounds out with additional snowmaking on two trails in Canyons’ Iron Mountain area, and a widening of Chicane trail, to handle increased skier traffic for Interconnect Gondola access. We’ll also be putting another $5 million into various other maintenance projects around Park City Mountain Resort.
Wow. That’s a mouthful. But you can see why we’re so excited to make skiing and riding in Park City, and Utah, the Experience of a Lifetime. Read more, and download a map laying out the big plan, HERE.
It’s the dawn of an exciting new era at Park City and we couldn’t be more excited to share it with you. We look forward to working with local organizations and officials to satisfy permit and regulatory approvals. Stay tuned for updates throughout this next history-making year of growth!

[CH3skier]

 PCimage.jpg (134.46K)
Number of downloads: 52

[DonaldMReif]

So, if we're reading it correctly, an Interconnect Gondola will be built. A Doppelmayr high speed six pack will replace King Con and the current King Con will be used to upgrade Motherlode.

[floridaskier]

Very excited for the King Con / Motherlode replacements especially (this should have happened in 2009 if not for the financial crisis). That solves the two biggest traffic problems on the mountain at the same time. Silverlode couldn't handle any more traffic as is and dumping the gondola off there would have made it worse. Great thinking on Vail's part - this will be a massive improvement on the PCMR end, and they can tackle the mess on The Canyons end another time (you have to think there's more coming in 2016 on The Canyons side).

As for the interconnect, it's still a serious haul from the base area of The Canyons to PCMR, and you need to ride another lift at the end of the new gondola to get there. Flight > Tombstone > Peak 5 > Dreamscape > Flat Iron > gondola or Flight > Timberline > Iron Mountain > gondola (more likely). From the PCMR point of view, Iron Mountain is real terrain that you can now get to in one lift from Silverlode. But it's a haul to the good part of The Canyons if you start your day at the PCMR base. Look out next year for a Dreamcatcher/Dreamscape HSQ (you could knock out both with one lift) and another new lift to improve access across the wasteland of houses. I hope they left enough room between houses to do it.

I also like the note about the additional $5 million in deferred maintenance catch-ups at PCMR this year. Who knows what Powdr skimped on the last 5 years

[skidude2]

Whew! What a surprise that the announcement came this early! Thoughts:

-I have skied Canyons for years now. The biggest difference between PCMR and Canyons is that PCMR is packed and Canyons is not. Even this year with the Epic Pass, it is still that way. Last Saturday I went to PCMR. After skiing about 5 runs me and my friends decided to head back to Canyons. We immediately noticed that Canyons was just so much less crowded and nice. In my opinion, Canyons is just such a better mountain. I SO HOPE that it stays that way and that Canyons won't see bigger crowds, but I realize that it is a distinct possibility.

-Silverlode is a hellacious nightmare. The lines are unbearable. No one wants to use Motherlode right now because of the long ride. Hopefully the new HSQ will change that. However, the Thaynes/Motherlode runs also are just plain short. Hopefully more people will ski them and use Motherlode to take pressure off of Silverlode.

-King Con was built in 1993. I believe it's the oldest High Speed lift at PCMR. I can't see them moving it to become the new Motherlode. How long is the service life of a HSQ? Anyone know?

-I also can't see them moving Motherlode. An old Yan from 1980.

-It will take a long time to get between the two resorts. Can't see many people going back and forth many times in a day. Although I worry that people coming over from PCMR and could crowd the ONLY lift at Canyons that can have a line: Tombstone. Simply because you have to ride it to get over to the right side of Canyons.

Excited about some things, scared for others haha. I guess that's the way it is though.

But I do really want to know... How long is the service life for a lift like King Con? 21 year old Garaventa CTEC HSQ?

-Keaton

[TheEpicPancake]

Yea I have to say, I'm very excited about the whole plan, except for the fact that there are no lift upgrades on the Canyons side. With the gondola arriving at Flat Iron, there's going to be a lot of traffic coming down White Pine and arriving right at the base of Dreamcatcher. I know they can only do so much at once, but it seems like upgrading Dreamcatcher would have been a top priority. I suppose they figured having to option to continue down to Iron Mountain and Timberline was enough to justify waiting on that upgrade.

[TheEpicPancake]

skidude2, on 08 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Whew! What a surprise that the announcement came this early! Thoughts:

-I have skied Canyons for years now. The biggest difference between PCMR and Canyons is that PCMR is packed and Canyons is not. Even this year with the Epic Pass, it is still that way. Last Saturday I went to PCMR. After skiing about 5 runs me and my friends decided to head back to Canyons. We immediately noticed that Canyons was just so much less crowded and nice. In my opinion, Canyons is just such a better mountain. I SO HOPE that it stays that way and that Canyons won't see bigger crowds, but I realize that it is a distinct possibility.

-Silverlode is a hellacious nightmare. The lines are unbearable. No one wants to use Motherlode right now because of the long ride. Hopefully the new HSQ will change that. However, the Thaynes/Motherlode runs also are just plain short. Hopefully more people will ski them and use Motherlode to take pressure off of Silverlode.

-King Con was built in 1993. I believe it's the oldest High Speed lift at PCMR. I can't see them moving it to become the new Motherlode. How long is the service life of a HSQ? Anyone know?

-I also can't see them moving Motherlode. An old Yan from 1980.

-It will take a long time to get between the two resorts. Can't see many people going back and forth many times in a day. Although I worry that people coming over from PCMR and could crowd the ONLY lift at Canyons that can have a line: Tombstone. Simply because you have to ride it to get over to the right side of Canyons.

Excited about some things, scared for others haha. I guess that's the way it is though.

But I do really want to know... How long is the service life for a lift like King Con? 21 year old Garaventa CTEC HSQ?

-Keaton

I'm sure others on here can testify better as to the life of a HSQ, however I would think they can still use it. On the other hand, perhaps selling it to another resort and building a new one would be better long term thinking.

I definitely wouldn't imagine that they would keep the Motherlode lift for any reason whatsoever.

[DonaldMReif]

skidude2, on 08 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

-King Con was built in 1993. I believe it's the oldest High Speed lift at PCMR. I can't see them moving it to become the new Motherlode. How long is the service life of a HSQ? Anyone know?

There are high speed quads from the 1980s that are still running strongly. American Flyer and American Eagle at Copper Mountain have operated in their alignments for 28 and 26 years respectively with very few major modifications to them. Some of Vail's Doppelmayrs (Game Creek Express and Northwoods Express) date to 1985, although they've gradually been upgraded in the last few years (the Vista Bahn Express was upgraded to a gondola two years ago, the Mountaintop Express was upgraded to a high speed six pack last year, and the word on the street is that the Avanti Express will be upgraded to a high speed six pack next year). Then you have the Falcon SuperChair which has been around since 1986 (with the only major modification being that its chairs were replaced about ten years ago). Vail's three Garaventa CTEC high speed quads (Pride Express, Wildwood Express and Riva Bahn Express) also date to the first half of the 1990s, the same period that King Con was installed during.

So some of these high speed quads have pretty long service lives.

This post has been edited by DonaldMReif: 08 December 2014 - 11:28 AM

[iceberg210]

TheEpicPancake, on 08 December 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I definitely wouldn't imagine that they would keep the Motherlode lift for any reason whatsoever.

They may not, but it'll live again I'm sure, pre 84 Yan's especially triples are some of the best fixed grips ever made and they find homes very quickly.

[skidude2]

DonaldMReif, on 08 December 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

There are high speed quads from the 1980s that are still running strongly. American Flyer and American Eagle at Copper Mountain have operated in their alignments for 28 and 26 years respectively with very few major modifications to them. Some of Vail's Doppelmayrs (Game Creek Express and Northwoods Express) date to 1985, although they've gradually been upgraded in the last few years (the Vista Bahn Express was upgraded to a gondola two years ago, the Mountaintop Express was upgraded to a high speed six pack last year, and the word on the street is that the Avanti Express will be upgraded to a high speed six pack next year). Then you have the Falcon SuperChair which has been around since 1986 (with the only major modification being that its chairs were replaced about ten years ago). Vail's three Garaventa CTEC high speed quads (Pride Express, Wildwood Express and Riva Bahn Express) also date to the first half of the 1990s, the same period that King Con was installed during.

So some of these high speed quads have pretty long service lives.

Very cool. So they could probably move it and be just fine. However, long term I would think Vail might choose to purchase a new one.

[floridaskier]

King Con was an orphan model at PCMR as the only lift with the old CTEC grips, but The Canyons has 3 more Stealth lifts to share parts with, increasing chances they keep it. It's only from 1993, and it has tire turnarounds and a brand new 6-pack-grade gearbox from around 2007 - they'll keep it for sure. It shouldn't be any problem to move it. It has really beefy-looking towers that can probably be used for a six pack without modification, and Motherlode towers (built 1979 I believe) can probably be reused as well. It even rotates the right direction for 90 degree loading on the new Motherlode. Making it a HSQ will siphon off a big chunk of the traffic that currently does laps on Parley's down to Silverlode. There are four good runs that go down there and I predict it will draw lots of traffic.

Also noted in the Park Record article is that the whole place will be called "Park City Mountain Resort," with the Canyons base area called "Canyons at Park City." Presumably that means they'll paint all the lifts either white or orange (probably PCMR white), match trail signs, add directional signs all over, and make a joint trail map. That's a pretty big undertaking - wonder what of that will happen this summer. Since it looks like PCMR is really running the show here, does this mean that all the detachables at The Canyons will lose the "Express" title?

http://www.parkrecor...ng-pcmr-canyons

[skidude2]

TheEpicPancake, on 08 December 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Yea I have to say, I'm very excited about the whole plan, except for the fact that there are no lift upgrades on the Canyons side. With the gondola arriving at Flat Iron, there's going to be a lot of traffic coming down White Pine and arriving right at the base of Dreamcatcher. I know they can only do so much at once, but it seems like upgrading Dreamcatcher would have been a top priority. I suppose they figured having to option to continue down to Iron Mountain and Timberline was enough to justify waiting on that upgrade.

I agree I was thinking that upgrades to Canyons lifts would be coming soon. However I get Vail doing this because PCMR needs upgrades badly to manage crowds. Canyons doesn't have that problem so they can probably wait.

I would think that the left side of Canyons would be first on the list but in my humble opinion the BEST THING they could do for Canyons is to build some sort of connection from the base to the left side. Tombstone can be a bottleneck. A two-way connection from Tombstone to the Base would be great as it would be another way to get on the mountain and go straight to the left, and it would be a great way off the mountain without everyone having to ride Tombstone then going down Sidewinder and taking the gondola down or Skiing Doc's/Rope tow at the end of the day. I wonder how they will eventually tackle that problem.

As far as the right side of Canyons goes, can't really see what they would need to upgrade there. Super Condor is in my opinion a great alignment and is a good lift. Sun Peak is fine, Orange Bubble is fine. Saddleback is fine too, they could upgrade to a 6 a guess but the line isn't really ever that long, I wouldn't think an upgrade is necessary. The only thing I can really see them doing is adding a lift from Sun Peak/ Super Condor area to the Orange Bubble Express midpoint so you could lap all the north facing terrain there without having to go all the way back to the Orange Bubble via Rope tow.

As for Dreamcatcher, it serves some pretty good steep Terrain that is underutilized. It also is pretty decent vertical. 1,500 ft. It also never has a line. EVER. I would think that the lift itself could handle the crowds. However, it is a long ride.

[skidude2]

floridaskier, on 08 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

King Con was an orphan model at PCMR as the only lift with the old CTEC grips, but The Canyons has 3 more Stealth lifts to share parts with, increasing chances they keep it. It's only from 1993, and it has tire turnarounds and a brand new 6-pack-grade gearbox from around 2007 - they'll keep it for sure. It shouldn't be any problem to move it. It has really beefy-looking towers that can probably be used for a six pack without modification, and Motherlode towers (built 1979 I believe) can probably be reused as well. It even rotates the right direction for 90 degree loading on the new Motherlode. Making it a HSQ will siphon off a big chunk of the traffic that currently does laps on Parley's down to Silverlode. There are four good runs that go down there and I predict it will draw lots of traffic.

Also noted in the Park Record article is that the whole place will be called "Park City Mountain Resort," with the Canyons base area called "Canyons at Park City." Presumably that means they'll paint all the lifts either white or orange (probably PCMR white), match trail signs, add directional signs all over, and make a joint trail map. That's a pretty big undertaking - wonder what of that will happen this summer. Since it looks like PCMR is really running the show here, does this mean that all the detachables at The Canyons will lose the "Express" title?

http://www.parkrecor...ng-pcmr-canyons

Good points! I do wonder if they will change signage...etc... Man though it is hard making Canyons into one easy to understand Trail Map. I would think those two together would be a jumbled mess.

And I didn't know that about King Con. Yeah seems like it would make sense to keep it then. Thanks!

This post has been edited by skidude2: 08 December 2014 - 12:39 PM

[skidude2]

I also wonder if a Jupiter lift upgrade is in the works. Personally I think 9,990 is WAAAAAY better then Jupiter, but I wonder.

[DonaldMReif]

floridaskier, on 08 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

King Con was an orphan model at PCMR as the only lift with the old CTEC grips, but The Canyons has 3 more Stealth lifts to share parts with, increasing chances they keep it. It's only from 1993, and it has tire turnarounds and a brand new 6-pack-grade gearbox from around 2007 - they'll keep it for sure. It shouldn't be any problem to move it. It has really beefy-looking towers that can probably be used for a six pack without modification, and Motherlode towers (built 1979 I believe) can probably be reused as well. It even rotates the right direction for 90 degree loading on the new Motherlode. Making it a HSQ will siphon off a big chunk of the traffic that currently does laps on Parley's down to Silverlode. There are four good runs that go down there and I predict it will draw lots of traffic.

Also noted in the Park Record article is that the whole place will be called "Park City Mountain Resort," with the Canyons base area called "Canyons at Park City." Presumably that means they'll paint all the lifts either white or orange (probably PCMR white), match trail signs, add directional signs all over, and make a joint trail map. That's a pretty big undertaking - wonder what of that will happen this summer. Since it looks like PCMR is really running the show here, does this mean that all the detachables at The Canyons will lose the "Express" title?

http://www.parkrecor...ng-pcmr-canyons

It depends. I think that the detachables on the PCMR side of the hill are more likely to get the "Express" title added to their names. There's a chance that even if they repaint the lifts on the Canyons side of the hill, they would almost certainly leave the Orange Bubble Express untouched.

skidude2, on 08 December 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

I would think that the left side of Canyons would be first on the list but in my humble opinion the BEST THING they could do for Canyons is to build some sort of connection from the base to the left side. Tombstone can be a bottleneck. A two-way connection from Tombstone to the Base would be great as it would be another way to get on the mountain and go straight to the left, and it would be a great way off the mountain without everyone having to ride Tombstone then going down Sidewinder and taking the gondola down or Skiing Doc's/Rope tow at the end of the day. I wonder how they will eventually tackle that problem.

That's been floated many times before.

Quote

As far as the right side of Canyons goes, can't really see what they would need to upgrade there. Super Condor is in my opinion a great alignment and is a good lift. Sun Peak is fine, Orange Bubble is fine. Saddleback is fine too, they could upgrade to a 6 a guess but the line isn't really ever that long, I wouldn't think an upgrade is necessary. The only thing I can really see them doing is adding a lift from Sun Peak/ Super Condor area to the Orange Bubble Express midpoint so you could lap all the north facing terrain there without having to go all the way back to the Orange Bubble via Rope tow.

Putting a high speed quad in an alignment that would make it possible for people to lap all of those trails without using the tow to return to Orange Bubble would be great. The only question is, is there room near the Orange Bubble's midstation for such a lift? Of course, you're saying that The Canyons needs to reintroduce the Raptor lift, which was removed in 2000 (I believe the original Raptor is now used as Dreamcatcher or Dreamscape):

Quote

As for Dreamcatcher, it serves some pretty good steep Terrain that is underutilized. It also is pretty decent vertical. 1,500 ft. It also never has a line. EVER. I would think that the lift itself could handle the crowds. However, it is a long ride.

A high speed quad on Dreamcatcher is a wise idea. But I think that Dreamscape should also be upgraded as well.

[TheEpicPancake]

skidude2, on 08 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Good points! I do wonder if they will change signage...etc... Man though it is hard making Canyons into one easy to understand Trail Map. I would think those two together would be a jumbled mess.

And I didn't know that about King Con. Yeah seems like it would make sense to keep it then. Thanks!

Leave it up to James Niehues, he would create an amazing map that encompasses both resorts in a single view (minus perhaps the McConkey's area). Although I'm slightly concerned that Vail might go the route they took with Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge AND Northstar by commissioning a truly horrifying digitally created trail map. Seriously, does anyone think Breckenridge's map in particular looks good?