227 replies to this topic

[boardski]

If they remove those lifts, the forest service will probably start throwing their weight around and they will never get rebuilt, we'll have a Berthoud Pass story. I agree with Peter Pitcher on this one, they (the companies) need to start talking rationally especially Powdr Corp. I am starting to really regret purchasing a pass from them for next year.

This post has been edited by boardski: 13 June 2014 - 07:27 AM

[Peter]

boardski, on 13 June 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

If they remove those lifts, the forest service will probably start throwing their weight around and they will never get rebuilt, we'll have a Berthoud Pass story. I agree with Peter Pitcher on this one, they (the companies) need to start talking rationally especially Powdr Corp. I am starting to really regret purchasing a pass from them for next year.

All 3 Park City resorts are entirely on private land so the Forest Service is not involved.

[floridaskier]

Details of Powdr's plans to remove all the lifts in one summer:
http://www.parkrecor...-infrastructure

Article about loss of economic activity if they don't open for 14-15:
http://www.parkrecor...act-an-eviction

Know this is ridiculous to even talk about doing this, but isn't the cost of around $3 million for removing all the lifts really low? Would have thought it would be more

[Backbowlsbilly]

It's seems to me like if Powdr loses, they want to give Vail a chunk of land that would take a lot of investment and time to get back to ski mountain again, one that would be practically useless in the short term. They say they want the best for the community but if they lose, they'll rip apart one of the area's ski resort's and cause significant damage to the economy of Park City. If you don't pay the lease, you don't get the land, not you don't pay the lease and drag two other companies into an ugly legal battle in order to spite them and give them bad press in an attempt to win the land back. Also, having PCMR and Canyons on the Epic Pass would probably cause a boost in skier visits to those two mountains since more Colorado and Tahoe skiers would be inclined to try Park City, that seems good for the community to me.

[CH3skier]

Reading the removal plan and shorting the bottom lifts sounds like a big waste of money. I don’t think anybody would want to ski such shorten lifts and I don’t see PCMR recouping the money spent dismantling the mountain. Also what about the back rent from 2011? That could be a sizeable chunk of money. I would think the smart thing to do is start appraising all mountain assets and come up with total for Vail.

[snoloco]

Park City has said that they will remove the following lifts. Crescent, Town, King Con, Silverlode, Bonanza, Silver Star, Eaglet, Pioneer, and McConkeys. The Jupiter, Motherlode, and Thaynes lifts will be partially removed as the towers are fixed to the land rather than bolted like on the others. The First Time, 3 Kings, Eagle, and Payday lifts would be shortened and realigned to stay on property. They would have a small ski slope with a terrain park on it as well as a Camp Woodward. This work would take 33 weeks if they worked around the clock and cost almost 4 million. The removable snowmaking equipment would be removed as well as all the groomers and the furniture from the mid mountain lodges.

[floridaskier]

If I was an employee at other Powdr resorts, i wouldn't be too pleased that my boss was talking about blowing $4 million more just to stick it to Vail, not to mention all the legal fees. It's all scare tactics, nobody's removing anything. But just for the sake of imagination:

How big of a crew would it take to actually remove 10 lifts in one summer? Some of them are harder to get to, and not all of them would have much resale value. Does Powdr have other places in their portfolio to put all of these lifts if they did end up doing this? How long would it take Vail to rebuild all of them with new and better lifts (as they promised in the media)? If they can only do a couple of them a year, where do you start? I wonder if they've even asked the lift manufacturers for estimates in the unlikely event that they do this.

Really not too worried about this happening. Just hope they agree on a fair price to make Powdr go away sooner rather than later. I don't think Powdr is doing themselves any PR favors with locals by putting this kind of nonsense in the paper. And I know that a couple of family members who have been PCMR season passholders the last couple years have held off so far for 2014-15. Can't imagine too many people have forked over money to Powdr so far this summer.

[snoloco]

They've got at least Killington, Pico, and Copper to send these lifts. Killington needs one and possibly two 6-packs. They would install them on Ramshed and Snowshed. They would need to use parts from the one that went on Snowshed in order to restore Ramshead to it's original length (ASC nixed the top when they put in the current HSQ). Snowshed is only 3,600 feet long, but Ramshead's original length was around 6,500 feet. The Town Lift could be used to replace the South Ridge Triple at Killington which was removed and not replaced in 2011. It wasn't replaced because Powdr had to spend like crazy to bring the place out of neglect and disrepair from ASC. They couldn't use the old lift anymore and they couldn't afford a new one. Eaglet would work great as a new beginner lift for Pico, and Silver Star or Pioneer could be used to replace the Outpost Double. Both of these are old Carlevaro-Savio doubles that are not in good condition, but are less traveled, so the replacement must be done cheap. Used fixed grips are the cheapest you can get.

[jaytrem]

snoloco, on 14 June 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

They've got at least Killington, Pico, and Copper to send these lifts.

They also could use one for the new Bachelor lift and they have quite a master plan for Las Vegas. So if you like to see lots of lifts being built, the best thing might be to root for PCMR to be allow to remove them. As for Vail rebuilding, that would be nothing compared to what was done in Sochi the last couple years.

[liftmech]

Realistically speaking, for PCMR/Powdr to remove and reinstall these lifts would be a minimum two-year project. Even if they pulled off the ambitious removal project, those lifts won't be down in time to put back up this summer. The price tag on one of these lifts wouldn't be much less than a brand-new one. Plus they're already over ten years old.

[Lift Dinosaur]

33 weeks around the clock = 5544 hours. If a guy works 7 10 hour days for 33 weeks he'd be a vegetable, but it would take 80 guys to do this project at that pace. If they started on April 1st they would finish on November 15th. If the average crew wage was $20 per hour this would be $4,500,000- base wages- no benefits, taxes, work comp, etc etc. AND- where are you going to find 80 guys that can do this kind of work? LPOA & Doppelmayr aren't going to do it- they have their own lifts to Install. AND- the stipulation in the Eviction Notice is clear of the land in 60 days which is 8.6 weeks not 33.
As previously stated, PCMR officials should be evaluating the value of their infrastructure to see what they could get for it. Their claim to be a "best friend" of Park City isn't showing through with this thought process.
$0.02
Dino

[2milehi]

I believe that we are watching a CEO game of Texas Hold-em.

[Peter Pitcher]

More like "Indian Poker" Pardon the political incorrect

[Peter]

Thursday is the big day the judge decides whether to sign an eviction order and if the lifts can be removed or not.

[CH3skier]

Just an update from the Park Record:
Judge could sign PCMR eviction order this week

Resort will ask for a postponement during critical Thursday hearing
by Jay Hamburger THE PARK RECORD
Posted: 06/17/2014 04:56:21 PM MDT12 Comments



Ryan Harris, the 3rd District Court judge presiding over the lawsuit between Park City Mountain Resort and its landlord, Talisker Land Holdings, LLC, could sign a de facto eviction order against PCMR this week.
It would be another in a string of stunning moments in a case that will decide the fate of PCMR. The sides are scheduled to appear in court on Thursday with the possibility of Harris ruling in favor of Talisker Land Holdings, LLC and then signing a document known as an order of restitution. The order of restitution, submitted to the court by Talisker Land Holding, LLC in April, is essentially an eviction order. It would give PCMR 60 days to leave the disputed land.
Harris has already made a series of rulings in favor of the landlord. The case involves Talisker Land Holdings, LLC acreage underlying most of the terrain at PCMR. The judge has critically ruled that the PCMR leases expired in 2011 after they were not renewed. PCMR plans to appeal the rulings.
Vail Resorts is overseeing the case for Talisker Land Holdings, LLC as part of its agreement to lease and operate Canyons Resort. The deal could be extended to include the disputed PCMR terrain depending on the outcome of the case.
In court filings last week, the PCMR side asked Harris to postpone signing an eviction order until other parts of the case are decided. The filings outlined a projected large impact on the area's economy if PCMR is evicted. PCMR says an eviction would cause the immediate closure of the resort. PCMR would then operate during the ski season with greatly reduced offerings on land not involved in the case. That land is located at the base of PCMR or slightly uphill from there.
Alan Sullivan, the lead attorney for PCMR, said in an interview the arguments on Thursday will be similar to those made in the filing. He said the impact on the economy will be discussed. PCMR issued a prepared statement from Sullivan in anticipation of the hearing.
"At Thursday's hearing, PCMR will ask the court to postpone any eviction order until PCMR has the chance to file an appeal and obtain a stay of proceedings pending review by the Utah Supreme Court. PCMR remains committed to finding a resolution that works for both parties and the community. Vail should come to the table with a concrete offer to resolve this dispute," Sullivan said in the statement.
The Talisker Land Holdings, LLC side also released a prepared statement, saying PCMR used "inflammatory rhetoric" in the recent filing. The statement says the Cumming family, which owns PCMR parent Powdr Corp., "can calm this entire situation" by saying skiers will not be blocked from the disputed terrain even if they pursue an operation on the lower section of the mountain that is not involved in the case. A statement "will ensure the health of all of Park City and will also create more profitability for the Cummings," Talisker Land Holdings, LLC said.
"There is no doubt that any activity the Cummings are planning on that site will be more successful if guests can also choose a more comprehensive experience. The Cummings' suggestion that they would prevent skiers and riders from accessing the upper mountain terrain is nothing more than a crude negotiating tactic or pure spite. And neither has a role in this dialogue," the prepared statement said.
Powdr Corp. CEO John Cumming on Tuesday released a prepared statement: "I am committed to resolving this dispute, which is why we have made repeated offers to Talisker and now Vail to settle this case so that the resort will continue operation. But I can't negotiate with myself. The truth is that I can't get them to engage with me. We have received no concrete offers from Vail. Since we can't keep bidding against ourselves, they need to come to the table. When that happens this dispute can be resolved quickly in a way that works for both parties and the community."

[Backbowlsbilly]

Hold on a second, didn't Vail offer to buy Powdr's holdings at the base of PCMR earlier this year? I

[2milehi]

http://www.sltrib.co...t-katz.html.csp

It is a "Dear John" letter

This post has been edited by 2milehi: 18 June 2014 - 05:14 PM

[skier2]

Now understanding more fully the string of events leading up to tomorrow's court hearing, I believe Vail will walk away as tenant to a new resort in Utah, and rightfully so. PCMR's biggest mistake was to unwittingly accept new lease terms from Talisker and then refuse to pay its rent. This whole situation is like a bad episode of Judge Judy, except that the players are multimillion-dollar enterprises, not crackheads and deadbeats.

[snoloco]

PCMR had better get a head start on removing the lifts. They are going to loose.

[egieszl]

I hope PCMR follows through with their threats. I've enjoyed this drama and want to see how this plays out when the lifts start tumbling down.